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Muscle Beach Mastini :: Forums :: for the gang :: good fun << Previous thread | Next thread >>
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CrazyMastino
Sat Jul 08 2006, 06:13AM
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"Gio611" wrote ...
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CrazyMastino
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sambullo wrote ...

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CrazyMastino
Sat Nov 18 2006, 11:54AM
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 Kim
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
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Location: South Wales UK


Post subject: Alleri Groups Security Mastini-Exciting or Disturbing?

Here are the words of Alleri's Virgilio........
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its very difficult for me for the language-limits explain exactly what we are doing.

Very briefly, the first step of our work was the definition of a generic temperament-standard for our breed, related to its original history, morphology, utilizations, etc. It has been an etho-historical-zootecnical-iconographical-social research..(still in course, by the way...).
Then, do the wider general testing on different exemplares for integrate the results of it with the "theorical reference-standard" above, for remodelling and updating it after several direct tests, for arriving to a specific and more actual "temperament&utilizations map" of the breed (its the actual phase).
We'll use it for our dogs-evaluations, testing them one more time also with more focused and tailored tests in according with the defined map. These evaluations will be used for improving in general the "selezione caratteriale" in our kennel, with the most appropriate crosses and breeding choices.
From these crosses, we'll select with our partner some puppies whom will be adressed to a professional training. These special puppies will became young DOC "Alleri-SecurityDog", ready for future practical utilizations, public or private, with some of them kept by us also as reproductors if they'll fit also the Type and Healt/Rusticity sides of our breeding project.
These are, very-very briefly (many other things to tell...but it would be too long and also lets keep some secrets... ), our intentions.

In terms of first observations, we have discovered many interesting facts, also because the experience of our partner allows to compare the arcaic original neo-behaviours with the other breeds, assigning in this way to the neo the "right" tasks in according to its true nature. In particular, we think that only the neo exprimes an arcaic capacity of "ambush", tipycal of some predatory-cats or in general the felines. They are able to be very silent and hiddden, leaving the enemy free to come very close...they lie in wait...suddenly attacking the enemy in a very original way, using all his weight, mass and with a particular, terrible way of "presa", until the death, really like a lion. For this reason, after a right training able to develop naturally these attitudes (and stop the dog if required..., this is really a very difficult step of training for our breed..), they can be ideal for a guard service in a limited area (not too large, in this case much better other breeds), as personal defence-dog for welltrained owners, in general for a short, ultimate body-to-body fight (militar guerrilla-tasks, for ex). We think neo could be the best breed in this last aspect, able to leave on ground on "presa" without possibility of reaction also persons of 80-100kg (like bulls and lions in arena..) much more ideal for that than a rott, a staff or a dogo,for i.e. Of course neos with well selected temperament and with some morphology (able to see well, very strong and angulated on rear legs, heavy, massive but reactive, lips not so long, no lympatism, etc...). But this is up to us (its the Type-side), not up to the training-partner...He has only to test, select and prepare them.

I can ensure all of you that is a real emotion watching massive healty neos at work in real natural enviroment (not in a ordinary training-camp). They really seems felines, beasts, incredible animals to my eyes. The ancient "sauvegerie" raise up, present itself again..., ready to go, proud, noble, impressive beasts in your hands... you and your mastino as one unique "phisical" thing.. it's my dream of breeder, the final objective of the Alleri's work (damn..its still a long, but wonderful, trip...).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It has come to my attention that experienced members of Mastinari Uniti are troubled by this, by the affect it can have on Mastino future and how our breed is percieved by the general public. It has been suggested to contact Virgilio privately and directly with the views and opinion of Uniti membership.

I do hope people will voice their beliefs, especially as Uniti membership is on the whole, made up of vastly experienced Mastinari with knowledge, on what is a vital and important subject, which can dictate the whole future of Mastino.

Thank you!






Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:43 pm




Kim
Site Admin



Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

OK. I will begin here with a couple of questions...................

Virgilio Says....
In particular, we think that only the neo exprimes an arcaic capacity of "ambush", tipycal of some predatory-cats or in general the felines. They are able to be very silent and hiddden, leaving the enemy free to come very close...they lie in wait...suddenly attacking the enemy in a very original way, using all his weight, mass and with a particular, terrible way of "presa", until the death, really like a lion

---------------------------------------------

My first question would be, in what kind of situation, outside the Serengetti in Africa, would a Mastino (neo??) be required to pounce on a perceived enemy and crush them to death? Are we talking here to send Mastini to war? In 2006, where else can a dog crush something (a human being) literally to death without the owner being prosecuted for murder and his dog put to sleep.

----------------------------------------------
Virgilio says
These evaluations will be used for improving in general the "selezione caratteriale" in our kennel, with the most appropriate crosses and breeding choices.

-------------------------------------------------------

Selection, breeding, crosses........will this Alleri created Security dog be classed as a Mastino, or a new Presa type super dog, or large Cane Corso?? Is it indeed, fair, to majority of Mastino owners and breeder everywhere to promote this animal as a Secuity Mastino?

----------------------------------------------------------
Kim says........

I have followed the various forums of working v non working Mastini for some time and think, this is can be an attempt to make a good business using Mastino as a security dog, by selling puppies for this purpose. Nothing wrong with enterprise in the free world, but if in this enterprise, the reputation and future of the breed can be severely damaged, questions must be surely asked. Here, the promotion is to resurrect what has gone in the past.....The first question is why is it this kind of dog gone from our lives already? Is there indeed, even a place for this kind of dog in todays society? And how can one be entirely certain of this dog of the past, when none of us ever saw or met one. So, is based on hearsay and interpretation of description made by others........

But then there are several things which make this security Mastino not such a great idea. Not all to do with the temperament, which I feel is certainly not as predictable as other dogs trained in this kind of work. If you observe your dogs and they live in groups outside of kennels like my own do, you only have to sit and watch how they interact with each other to see this and also who is top dog, who make the bullets for others to fire and the natural order of things in their free environment. They don’t need to fight to prove it but sometimes, very rarely, it happens and its not pretty when it does! I don’t really need to carry out test to see by how much my Mastino is brave, or what he will do if something that belong to him is at risk or he himself thinks the situation is dangerous, I know them well enough for me to live with them closely every day, to trust them and feel safe, to observe them do their job at home and to teach them to socialise and fit into every day society, urban and rural. By that, I mean behave correctly with humans and other animals.

I have owned some very serious dogs at my place over the years. I keep them safely because I love them and they love me. I also take a great deal of time to study and to understand them. I am the responsible owner to keep them in a safe environment if I know they are serious. I don’t take them to public place where there are always lots of people, not because I cannot predict what my dog will do, but I cannot control what PEOPLE will do, to provoke a reaction from my dog. I notice over these years, that these more serious Mastini go to heightened guarding mode when placed into a situation they feel they cannot control, as this group of Mastiff all pick up on atmospheres and sense things that maybe human being is not even aware of.

After living for now all these years, every day with group of Mastini in free living environment, what I have learned is this. There is a part of Mastino, all of them without exception, that you cannot train. They keep this part for the most time, hidden deep inside themselves because most of the time, no one need to push this button in modern day society. Mastino do things because they want to, because they love and wish to please their owner, but, there is a point where all of them will become their own dog, because they are very smart and its smart in a way human cannot always understand because is deeply cunning intelligence and not heightened intelligence of regular guarding or security breed.

To use another angle and be practical, why will anyone wish to own a security Mastino when they can have another breed to do the job better or at least just as well, who don’t smell bad, who don’t drool and make a terrible mess, who don’t have problems with skin etc, who don’t eat so much, sh*t so much, who need much more attention to care for than other breed??? We own our Mastini and we do these things because we love them and proud to see them look great. If its a working animal to do job, why do you wish to care for them to this level, when can have another dog who don’t need all this food, care and don’t make a mess ...we don’t even need to think about suitable temperament, just the practicalities..........So, at the very least, you are trying to appeal to a very small market of people, who want a Mastino to crush people to death and are prepared to pay a lot of money and do a lot of work to look after them.

I think we have all worked very hard to present to people in general, our breed as a safe dog, who can be in todays society and live in harmony with humans, but cannot be a dog for everyone to own, because you need the right place for them to be happy and not let them wreck your house, and also work hard to understand a troublesome breed.

Virgilio and Alleri will say this is their aim, to understand every single thought process of their Security Mastino and this Alleri Mastino will react only when you flick a switch........But is it dangerous to even attempt this? One disaster is all it will take!

Because one day, such a dog may kill an innocent person when he doesnt stop his attack when ordered. We will read it all over in the newspapers. The Mastino Napoletano was almost banned in its country of origin last year and in Germany and Holland before this. The reason, as we know is the breed was deemed by governments to be aggressive and dangerous in nature. Normal owners and breeders went and lobbied their Governments, even took their dogs on television to show the opposite was true and their Mastini are safe dogs to have in society as long as responsibly owned, like any other large breed of dog. Now we read on public website, there is no better dog in the world, to crush a man to death, than a Mastino Napoletano and wish to train them to return to their origins at a time when the world was not governed by legislation such as Dangerous Dogs Act............

I need to know what others believe?






Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:01 am




Ottomus1
Newbie



Joined: Aug 06, 2006
Posts: 55
Location: New Jersey, USA


Post subject:

Kim,
I agree with you whole heartedly, a mastini that has been turned on can never be turned off. It's like having a loaded gun with a hair trigger, but the difference is you will never know when it will go off.






Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:09 am




Capriano
Site Admin



Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 160
Location: North of Norway


Post subject:

Kim, agree and support you completely. The same as you I cant understand where and why i need these protection abilities for my dogs.. That what i have is already more than enough for society where i live. Could be less in fact. In a way I understand what Virgilio means, yes, it is great with so called working dogs but where are they used now? Mostly in sport and there they speak about not only drive and how brave they are but about how fast they are. And this is not for mastino. So this breed will never be used for that purpose. So for what shall they breed and train these dogs? What enemies shall they crush to death?
Yes, my male can bite, i know that, but a professional trainer/figurant can supposingly frighten my untrained dog and he will run away. At least that is what figurants say, they have a lot of tricks to check how brave your dog is in fact and believe me a lot off tough but untrained dogs will escape. I have seen it myself. But you know... I dont care if my mastini will "shit in the pants" in an unusual for them situation. I prefer them alive but not put down because they crashed somebody to death with misunderstanding.
I agree with you Gonnie, it is easier to switch them on then off. My friend in Moscow who is a breeder tried to train her male for protection... he was a very ballanced dog and very calm... She had to stop this training after very short time. He began to be so protective that it was dangerous to have him in public. And he was the sweetest dog i knew.
Only 2 days ago there was a program on russian tv... such programs come up frequently... biting and dangerous dogs... of course mastino was shown there too... and absolutly all the members of the russian mastino forum noticed the negative attitude of "not dog people" after this program. Some are just afraid and change the side of the road when they meet mastino, some are angry that people have "killer dogs" and say nasty things to the owners. Do we really want such publicity for our breed? I dont think so...
And one more thing... Some owners (particularly males ) who want to own a huge breed who not only looks frightening but can be really frightenning and dangerous make me think that they really have problems... like inferiority complex...
_________________
Best wishes
Ludmila






Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:06 am




ADREAS
Newbie



Joined: Aug 16, 2006
Posts: 15



Post subject:

BRAVO KIM FOR HAVING THE CAREGE TO BROUGHT THIS UP.
I AGREE WITH YOU A BREEDER DONT HAVE TO USE BITING TESTS TO KNOW THE CARACTER OF THEIR MASTINI.IF YOU LIVE WITH THEM AND OBSERVE THEM YOU CAN TELL.
EVERY ONE CAN HAVE THEIR OPINION AND A COURSE OF ACTION ,
OF THEIR CHOICE BUT IF YOU ENDAGER THE MARE SERVIVOR OF THE MASTINO WE MUST PROTEST.
THERE IS THE MEDIA ALWAYS ON THE HANT OF HEADLINES,
AND THEN POLITISIAN TAKING ADVANDAGE OF THE FEARS OF THE MIDLE MAN.THE LAST THING WE ALL WANT IS TO SEE THE MASTINO IN A LIST OF FORBITEN BREEDS,SO WE ALL HAVE TO DO OUR PART TO AVOID THIS
FROM HAPENING






Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:31 am




Linda
Newbie



Joined: Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 3



Post subject:

Alleri is talking of Quote:
carefully selected crosses
? This has been done the American BANDOG. Cross breeding creates a MUTT and why are people rushing to buy these dogs? Go to any animal shelter in north america and you can find cross bred dogs in need of a home.

What scares me is he is not talking sport training ... I have done some "sport training with mastini and they are ideally not the breed to train. They are too big and clumbsy and can bite their lips. My trained dog has zero human aggression, he is totally bite sleeve oriented. It is a sport and nothing more. Alleri is talking real life protection and it is very dangerous talk in this day and age. I would think that a breeder would be cautious of this talk considering Italy's leads the world with a record setting number of banned breeds. What type of person would need this protection?? Other breeders should talk to him because he is putting this breed in a dangerous position. It will be the MASTINO that will pay the price in the end and perhaps become extinct once more.






Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:12 am




sophie
Site Admin



Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 69



Post subject:

ADREAS wrote:
BRAVO KIM FOR HAVING THE CAREGE TO BROUGHT THIS UP.
I AGREE WITH YOU A BREEDER DONT HAVE TO USE BITING TESTS TO KNOW THE CARACTER OF THEIR MASTINI.IF YOU LIVE WITH THEM AND OBSERVE THEM YOU CAN TELL.
EVERY ONE CAN HAVE THEIR OPINION AND A COURSE OF ACTION ,
OF THEIR CHOICE BUT IF YOU ENDAGER THE MARE SERVIVOR OF THE MASTINO WE MUST PROTEST.
THERE IS THE MEDIA ALWAYS ON THE HANT OF HEADLINES,
AND THEN POLITISIAN TAKING ADVANDAGE OF THE FEARS OF THE MIDLE MAN.THE LAST THING WE ALL WANT IS TO SEE THE MASTINO IN A LIST OF FORBITEN BREEDS,SO WE ALL HAVE TO DO OUR PART TO AVOID THIS
FROM HAPENING


I agree.

In france, there were the accidents importing with bites 2 or 3 months ago. The politicians wanted to classify the whole group 2 in the 1st category "dangerous dog". Everybody mobilized itself and fortunately anything has been made but for how long ? If the mastino had passed in this category, I think that it would be fatal for him...

We must work for a dog healthy of character, the mastino doesn't have need to be tested, nor worked, it has the potential that can be to wake up at all times and very easily... It's not useful to have a fawn at her house.


Sophie






Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:14 pm




Kim
Site Admin



Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

Thanks to all who posted so far and would encourage other members to post also, what they believe, either way.

Sophie and Andreas, thats an excellent point re the biting. Once the Media sense a story that will provoke powerful reaction from the 'middle man', you will see every incident blown up out of all proportion in the press. I remember when Rottweilers first came to UK it seemed every other week there was a new story about a person or a small fluffy dog that had been savaged by these nasty Rottweilers......and once, there was a child in Scotland who was badly bitten by a Mastino, was the worse time for the breed here in UK and it came in for a lot of scrutiny and bad press. We never saw a picture of the actual dog who bit the child, but pictures of a dog such as the one Tiago parades on the various websites, with cropped ears, dressed in leather harness, frothing at the mouth and looking as dangerous as possible for your average person to question is it safe to have this kind of dog living in my community? Always, it is important to promote a positive public image and I think on the whole, we do that.

The physical appearance aspects of Alleri work I dont think anyone has any problem with. If he wishes to create a more rustic, hard working dog with less skin, no lymphatic issues etc, in a breed with health issues as deep rooted as ours, cannot knock him for this. Even if Linda says, this dog would be used for sports, but the intention here is to create, in his words, a BEAST, to be controlled in their owners hands.........and the owners will be trained by?????? Yes, thats yet another problem!






Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:18 am




Linda
Newbie



Joined: Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 3



Post subject:

Kim ......Alleri does not talk of use for sport.

I have one dog that we did train and first the obedience must be perfect on and off leash before training begins. We trained with a schutzhund club. I will tell you an interesting fact...the dog we have trained will not protect us........he only plays with the sleeve. He has his Canine Good Citizen title. It is a game sport for him. I trust more the dogs that are not trained to protect me but it is not neccessary lol I have a very BIG husband lol!






Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:46 am




Kim
Site Admin



Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

Sure, in todays society, is a dangerous thing to train any dog to 'protect' you when the law does not support your dog if it does! With Mastino. I believe as most, the mere sight of them patrolling the grounds of my place or barking when someone approaches the gate, is enough to deter any person from entering uninvited. They dont and shouldnt have to, do anything more than this!

Only today, in UK we have the beginning of another media frenzy with Rottweilers. Two guard dogs a few days ago, got inside a property and killed a baby. Now today, I hear on the radio, a 14 year old boy was attacked by another Rottweiler and had to be beaten off with a hammer.............Of course, these next days and weeks will be a very bad time here for responsible owner of these dogs and Im quite sure we will have to endure another battle to retain the right to own our known guarding breeds in the near future. Our Mastini will for certain be included in this group of dogs in precarious situation, fighting for the right to just exist.

Instead of promoting them as natural born killers, it is our duty, as I see it, to do just the opposite, merely to protect and ensure their long term survival.






Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:04 pm




Drooln1
Newbie



Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 22



Post subject:

I have mixed feelings on the whole subject............

The breed is a working breed with focus on its guardian instincts, we all know that, but really many pople feel as though these instincts are not really wanted anymore, which makes me question why in the world is the breed grouped in the working group with akc, I have always felt they belonged more in the non sporting group. If the dogs are not desired or allowed to do what they were bred for then what are they to us ? They are guardians par excellence is what I have always read, but they are not wanted as what they are, so what do we do with them now ?


I am not one for any type of PP work, it just doesnt interest me all that much. I dont think the neo is designed for this work either to be honest, I have always thought of them as guardians but in the passive sort of way, not in the same class as say the more classic guardians.

But saying all of that I am not too put out when I see people using the breeding in working type situations, as long as it is being done in a proffessional manner and not soe street thug acting like thy have a bad assed dog who will rip your face off.

I dont like to give people researching the breed any inclination that they are big teddy bears, that rips me up when I hear people saying that, they are guardians and even though I feel the temperament has been watered down they still have the potential to be very primitive if not trained right and allowed to act on their own, so buyers should be told the truth of what is their history and what they are really capable of now, I have told many people dont be surprised when your neo decides at maturity not to allow your aunt meg into our living room

As far as what the alleri are doing, I dont see a problem with it as long as they do it in a ethical and professional manner, I think I am more comfortable with them using their dogs for this type of work then I would be with hillbilly huck who has no training except what they have read off a internet message board.

I have spoke to Virgilio regarding the working aspects, I explaind I had no thoughts right now of doing any type of training, although I have to admit the obedience and the tracking do sound like fun but to go any further I dont see myself doing that, he did not seem to have a problem with this, but said he would describe the basic testing to me, which is something I am interested in at least reading and maybe testing my own dogs just to see who they react in different situations.

Sorry if alot didnt make sense lmao I have found the wonderful world of my espresso machine I take it the stuff is pretty strong too cause I have only had one cup and dont think I will be sleeping anytime soon






Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:31 pm




ADREAS
Newbie



Joined: Aug 16, 2006
Posts: 15



Post subject:

I AM AFRAID YOU ARE MISING THE POINT .
SURVIVOR OF THE BREED.
ITS NOT ABOUT DEDY BEARS OR AMBOUSING KILLERS.
THE MASTINO AS WE ALL KNOW HAVE A MAGNIFESENT TEMPERAMENT
THAT CAN TAKE A LIFE TIME TO EXPLORE .YOU OR ME CAN MAKE TESTS
OR TRAIN ACORDING TO OUR KNOLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING BUT TO GO IN A PUBLIC FORUM AND DISCRIBE HOW A MASTINO CAN KILL A MAN
MIGHT BE A GOOD PROMOSION FOR A LINE OR SATISFING SOME OF OUR NEEDS BUT CAN BE PROVED DISASTRUS FOR THE BREED .
WHAT WE MUST SAY AND IS A BIG ACOPLISMENT IS THAT TODAY WE HAVE MASTINI ABLE TO PARTISHIPATE IN ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE .
EVERYTHING CAN BE IMPROVED WITH GOOD SELECTION.ALL GOOD BREEDERS ARE DOING SO IN THERE OWN WAY TAKING ACOUNT OF THE CARACTER AND HEALTH AS WELL.DIFRENT WAYS ARE VERY GOOD BECOUSE DIVERSITY IS ESENTIAL IN ALL LIFE FORMS,BUT DOING SO WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT WE SHOULD HAVE A BREED IN ORDER TO IMPROVED IT






Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:03 pm




Ottomus1
Newbie



Joined: Aug 06, 2006
Posts: 55
Location: New Jersey, USA


Post subject:

I must agree with you Andreas. For the Alleri Group to make these claims of being able to kill and maim people in present day society is a death threat to any breed.






Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:40 pm




Drooln1
Newbie



Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 22



Post subject:

Quote:
Virgilio Says....
In particular, we think that only the neo exprimes an arcaic capacity of "ambush", tipycal of some predatory-cats or in general the felines. They are able to be very silent and hiddden, leaving the enemy free to come very close...they lie in wait...suddenly attacking the enemy in a very original way, using all his weight, mass and with a particular, terrible way of "presa", until the death, really like a lion



Is this the part you are refering to about killing humans ? I did have to go search for it because I did not see it beforehand or probably did not pay attentention to it, but other then a couple of words its about what we have been saying for years in defense of the working people calling the neo a worthless slob lol they are not one who will charge out and attack but yet wait for the intruder to come into close quarters with themselves and then deal with it.

Unless I have missed something else in the post, his original was quite long and I wandered away or skimmed it, I dont see any more talk of killing people with our dogs

I would like to say though before people start assuming it, yes I bought a pup from the alleri, i do keep in touch with them to send pics and updates on her to them and do make small talk via email, this in no way is trying to defend their actions, but I can see some points they make do make sense, others are in a gray area where I am concerned, like states the whole protection training just not of an interest to me, but I do feel as though the breed needs to be doing something other then standing there looking pretty.






Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:01 am




Kim
Site Admin



Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

Sure, guys and Heidi, so many dogs today, not only in the working group are not able to carry out their original function in todays society as it is no longer acceptable to do so.

When Alleri originally spoke of their aims, ie the future is the past, I was interested and accepted many points raised about their view of physical problems within the breed. We have many lymphatic dogs, dogs with weaknesses in the construction, dogs with skin problem, entropia, huge lumbering beasts in some case, who cannot physically have the life of a normal dog. This isnt right either is it? To be so extreme in pusuit of what we perceive as beauty that a dogs lifespan and the quality of that life is impaired.

I dont think we have to be as extreme as Alleri believes to recitify as to alter appearance radically to that which has gone before (ie a modern day Zaccaro) since I tend to favour the work and type of Mastini produced first by Querci and the benchmark he set for others to follow. But the Alleri Groups views on health issues are valid and thought provoking, even if you do not agree completely.

Should they wish to produce a capable Mastino for sporting purpose this can also be seen as acceptable, although I am of the opinion there are far better breed more suited for the purpose.

But this idea of security Mastini is a real threat to the long term future of our breed as a whole. No one should mistake any dog for a teddy bear. The difference is when one the size of a Mastino bites, it causes massive damage which attracts the soptlight of media attention which in turn ask questions of the neutral man in the street if they want these 'beasts in our hands' in the same neighbourhood as our children.

Andreas is 100% correct. Mastino of 2006 must be trained to live in todays society if they are to have a future, by people experienced enough to understand their past. So, more important than ever, breeders to be completely responsible about what kinds of dogs they breed taking temperament into account and who they sell the resulting puppies to!






Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:43 am

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Type and Imports........ View previous topic :: View next topic







Kim
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject: Type and Imports........

OK, Guys, I wrote the following for Mastinari Uniti and hope it can lead to discussion. This is my own view and not word carved in stone, so please contribute and add your own observations and specialist knowledge of situation in your own country.......

-----------------------------------------------------------

In the years since many of us began our journey with the Mastino Napolitano, we have witnessed enormous changes and developments take place in the breed both in Italy and throughout the rest of the world.

The variety of Mastini seen today can be bewildering for both newcomers to the breed and the more experienced alike and one can be left pondering, what exactly is the correct type?

Things are not easily explained when you have so many different schools of thought and a breed standard which gives so much to breeders in the way of artistic license when it comes to expression, volume of skin and bone mass, which people confuse as ‘type’. There are also breeders who strive to move forward and those who hanker over what has gone before, so moving in entirely different directions.

Then there are several variations of the breed standard, ranging from the extremely ‘broad brush’ (which can almost be applied to almost any of the short haired Mastiff Group) to the extremely technical on the other end of the scale. In USA, judges are asked to take into account something they call the WHAM factor, meaning wrinkle, head and mass. In many countries there is virtually nothing specific enough as guidance for inexperienced judges and as a result, the Mastini winning shows at the top level are markedly different in terms of type. This in turn, leads to confusion for inexperienced breeders seeking direction.

So, what can we say is a good starting point to learn about correct type? Well the good news is that many breeders should take heart in the progress made thus far. In UK for example, the best of the dogs here can now compete with the best in many other countries in Europe and this could not be said a few years ago.
The bad news is that there are still many Mastini being bred (and being bred from) that do not conform to the Italian Breed Standard.

If we talk about type, then there is a definite division in what we class as ‘old type’ and ‘new type’. VERY simplistically, this is the Mastino pre and post Querci. Mario Querci (Ponzano) is credited with creation of a definitive modern day head type and construction and it can be argued that for the first time, a breeder of Mastini was successfully taking into account not only a dog fit to perform the functions for which they were originally bred, but also a Mastino aesthetically beautiful for the world of show. Mario Querci produced more show Champions than any other breeder to date and his legacy lives on, with his bloodlines behind many of today’s current show champions some 30 years later.

Therefore, if a newcomer to the breed was to study the Ponzano dogs of Mario Querci in the 1980’s, it would be safe to assume this would provide a good basic foundation on which to start building greater technical knowledge of today’s Mastino, as there is a great consistency in the type of dogs he produced, without the distraction of masses of skin and bone to obscure the basic construction of the head and physique.



So how does that relate to improvements that can be made to the Mastini of today?
Bearing in mind the strides forward and improvements already made to date, it is no longer the case that if a Mastino has been imported from Italy, it must be good or indeed, better than the dogs already in the country of the person looking to import. In order to further progress, greater attention needs to be paid to the type of Mastino brought in and how he / she can be used to further enhance what has already been achieved.

For example, in Bolivia you have Don Zamora consistently producing similar type Mastini to a very high standard, in USA breeders such as Cinciripinis showing the same, taking the best bloodline from Italy and over time, adding their own interpretation of type, making their Mastini as instantly recognisable of being from a certain breeder. In UK we have Dalnark also achieve this by clever use of a single Mastino to create a line all of their own. These are all examples of breeders outside of Italy producing their own line bred Mastini who now attempt to take things to the next level and seek to be as creatively gifted as the greatest of the Italian breeders we all know, respect and are indebted to for the creation of our foundation dogs. Where would any of us be without them?

But something to consider if and when you decide to dip a toe into the water and import, for Mastinari with more limited time and resources, it can be a good idea to look outside of your own Mastini when making a selection for import. Ask yourself is there a male already in the country to compliment your chosen female for future breeding and vice versa. To import to is a major decision. In many countries there is the issue of Quarantine which can make things a stressful, expensive and time consuming venture. Deep thought needs to be given to the long term benefit to both the owner and the breed in general before a decision is made on which dog to import, from which bloodline and why.

Now is an extremely exciting time for Mastino throughout the world. We have at our disposal more important bloodlines than ever before and breeders showing true commitment and passion so the future looks increasingly bright. We are still a little way from creating throughout the world (with a few exceptions) home grown Mastini to compete with the Italian legends in the Motherland, but there are signs that are extremely encouraging to see with many people striving to own and produce the best Mastini possible and going the extra mile to achieve their ambitions.

But understanding type is the key to building a solid foundation for the future. My friend and mentor Douglas Oliff said once, without type, where is the breed? This will always remain a pertinent but important question.






Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:57 pm




Marcelo
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Joined: Jul 28, 2006
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Post subject:

Ciao Kim,

Very good text, thanks...You only forgot to write there:
Call Marcelo and he can figure all for you
Now my opinion...The problem is the fashion...We dont lack type anymore, we lack the RIGHT TYPE.


Saluti,
Marcelo

Last edited by Marcelo on Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:56 am; edited 1 time in total






Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:45 am




sophie
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
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Post subject:

Very interesting to read.

Master Marcelo, can be you could show us of the examples of RIGHT TYPE...

Sophie






Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:05 am




Kim
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

But of course, Im talking about CORRECT type, Marcelo!!!

Of course, I should re word the paragraph.....When you decide to dip your toe into the water and import, just call 'Marcelo Berger, Brazillian Import Consultant of the Planet' , and he can arrange all for you for free.......

Im sure you disagree with more of the article than just that, so lets have it! lol

Last edited by Kim on Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total






Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:07 am




Droolgang
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Joined: Aug 06, 2006
Posts: 66
Location: Florida


Post subject:

Okay I am going to touch this. I am in Florida in the wonderful hard headed Neapolitan Owners of the USA. LOL


I am not saying that the USA doesn't have quality dogs but they are very few and far between.


I have imported through Marcelo LOL and have pointed others there as well. I have a mahogany female from di Rezzo di Paradiso. And I am waiting for another not sure on color yet. But I am also waiting on a male from Zamora.
Now dont get me wrong there are decent dogs here but not what I want. My favorites are Don Luciano, Nibbio, These are my idea of normal But I also like the more extreme types too. there are to many to list. But they all are not from here. LOL They may live here but they came from some where else. I sit back and watch the people post here in the states and they have there little groups and if you are not part of that group they look at you with disgust it is wrong I think the neapoitan Mastiff is a gorgeous animal no matter what type they are.


OOOPssss thought I should add this disclaimer. LMAO

These words are my feelings and only my feelings no one has preached to me or twisted my arm in any way to make me post this information LMAO.

I am sorry if I hurt any ones feelings but this is my opinion and the way I feel. At this point and time I probably would not buy a Neapolitan Mastiff from my country cause I see much better dogs in other country's and they are available to the public.
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:26 am




Marcelo
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Joined: Jul 28, 2006
Posts: 192



Post subject:

Kim wrote:
But of course, Im talking about CORRECT type, Marcelo!!! Where DID you get that picture, you bad man!!

Of course, I should re word the paragraph.....When you decide to dip your toe into the water and import, just call 'Marcelo Berger, Brazillian Import Consultant of the Planet' , and he can arrange all for you for free.......

Im sure you disagree with more of the article than just that, so lets have it! lol


Erase the part "and he can arrange all for you for free"...For free only for mastinari uniti group
Bacio Kim
Marcelo






Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:40 am




Kim
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

Sure Amber, I understand you. I do think USA being such a massive country has a lot to do with the problems you describe, with all the different factions and so on.

The point is there are breeders , I can say certainly here in UK and I have seen elsewhere, mating dogs, rearing puppies and so on for YEARS, without any concept or understanding of correct type. The above article was first written for UK Club Magazine, but I never posted it and now amended it to post here. I wrote it after reading a breeder here describe their 'type' as being dripping in skin with massive bones, nothing to do with construction, height, weight, head shape, etc...I see all the time, people comment favorably on many dogs pictures of completely incorrect type...But until seeing this, I didnt realise that understanding of Mastino type is still a problem for many.

Im with you on Luciano/Nibbio and other dogs of Don Zamora. For me, this is probably the 'man with the plan' right now.

Lovely to see you here posting Amber, and will be wonderful to see your Sis too and any other folk you think will enjoy. They dont have to be normal, or even sugary sweet and nice all the time, just up for a laugh and display a bit of passion for the breed!






Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:52 am




Kim
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Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

Ok, Marcelo, I was only joking about the free bit.......Members, Marcelo requires a years supply of Pringles for every completed transaction........rare to find flavours only.....






Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:55 am




Droolgang
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Joined: Aug 06, 2006
Posts: 66
Location: Florida


Post subject:

You know what my favorite is Kim.....


When some one breeds two dogs... And you think oh that should be a good breeding. And then boom the pups look like crap not like you expected at all and this person is a newbie. And The one little group that this person has been kissing butt with is all telling her how perfect and what a great breeding this was. I see it all the damn time and I tell you I am sick of it. It gets to the point where you dont even want to look at the boards any more cause of all the bs on them. I think and feel this way. If I was to breed one of my females to a male that was an excellent male and were expecting something excellent. I would prefer my friends to tell me hey Amber those pups didn't come out that great I wouldn't do that breeding again. It is not harsh or mean. But I would rather some one tell me the truth in what they think on a litter then sugar coat it to not make me feel bad and keep me as part of their little group. If some one can't handle the truth when it comes to this breed they need to walk away......


Just my opinon
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:15 am




Capriano
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Posts: 160
Location: North of Norway


Post subject:

Great point Amber. I feel completely the same as you. And great post Kim!






Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:42 am




Marcelo
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Joined: Jul 28, 2006
Posts: 192



Post subject:

Droolgang wrote:
You know what my favorite is Kim.....


When some one breeds two dogs... And you think oh that should be a good breeding. And then boom the pups look like crap not like you expected at all and this person is a newbie. And The one little group that this person has been kissing butt with is all telling her how perfect and what a great breeding this was. I see it all the damn time and I tell you I am sick of it. It gets to the point where you dont even want to look at the boards any more cause of all the bs on them. I think and feel this way. If I was to breed one of my females to a male that was an excellent male and were expecting something excellent. I would prefer my friends to tell me hey Amber those pups didn't come out that great I wouldn't do that breeding again. It is not harsh or mean. But I would rather some one tell me the truth in what they think on a litter then sugar coat it to not make me feel bad and keep me as part of their little group. If some one can't handle the truth when it comes to this breed they need to walk away......


Just my opinon


Amber you are visceral today
Bacio bella,
Marcelo






Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:29 pm




Kim
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

I agree Marcelo, but understand Amber needing to make her feelings known, as I see for a long time, she is very quiet on the forums.

When I recently posted some pix of Taine elsewhere, the whole forum turned into a discussion on his athleticism and health, which was fine by me, even if the person stirring the pot was doing so deliberately for ulterior motive.

I said at the time, when you post pix of your dogs on public forum as I did, hold them up as son or daughter of great show champions, also as I did, you are also supposed to welcome from people constructive criticsm. I welcome it and any opinion on my Mastini as I also have opinion of my own and nice to know what other people think.

Its a different matter entirely, if the Mastino is a pet, not being held up as a great show specimen, but a much loved companion to somone, of character of course. Then is the time to NOT harshly criticise, but comment on the condition, how loved they are, how funny they are, etc. There is a place for all kinds of Mastini of course and not all can be show winners or even beautiful. But what they are inside is as important as what they are outside.

The problems I have seen is as Amber, when entirely ordinary Mastini and even those lacking in basic type or with obvious fault, are promoted as the greatest Mastini on Earth. This does undoubtably lead to confusion for newcomers and also people are ridiculed and disliked if they to dare disagree with the glowing compliments.

I know the Mastinari Uniti family have different ideas on this subject in particular. I believe that to recognise faults and weaknesses is the first step towards trying to improve them. I have already quoted my mentor Douglas Oliff once in this thread and will quote so again. He always said breeder who wore rosy coloured glasses will never be objective enough to create a great dog.






Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:05 pm




Droolgang
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Joined: Aug 06, 2006
Posts: 66
Location: Florida


Post subject:

LMAO sorry Marcelo just had to get that off my chest and yes I have been very quiet on the boards because I dont fit in to a certain click that has been created and no matter what I get and show pictures of on the board I am always ignored or down graded for it. I have seen it happen far to often to many many people because they dont fit into a certain group but then you got the ones that fit in that group and no matter what they own or breed it is the best of the best.


I wasn't posting this to be harsh but it is something that has been going on for some time and no one has said anything so I had to get it off my chest. LOL

Kim thank you for understanding where I was coming from on this. I have been into Neos now for 8 years. Not long enough but a good amount of time. I am tired of being on the side lines. LOL I want to be more involved. That is why I am looking at getting better blood lines and improving what I have I want to show my dogs As well as love them. I hope all this makes since.


Oh and keep in mind I have a very bad head cold controlling my mind LMAO so maybe that is where some of this is coming from. LOL
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:45 pm




Sonnyduty
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Joined: Aug 08, 2006
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Post subject:

your funny amber. i totally agree with the whole click thing. if your not in a specific one it doesnt matter what you have it isnt good enough for them. but others could have the brother or sister to yours and theirs is the best.






Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:28 am




Kim
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

No one can deny Amber and Sonny, you both own some different and unusual Mastini for US and maybe this has something to do with it, eh?

I think the beauty of Uniti is that people are already here from all over the globe with a different view towards Mastino than has been seen elsewhere. Here is all about the dogs, first and last........helping each other, encouraging each other, sharing the happy times and the inevitable sad times.

This multicultural society of Mastinari is a fantastic concept and down to us all to make it work.






Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:23 am

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 Droolgang
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Post subject:

I dont know if that is a good thing or a bad thing Kim LMAO.....

But with mine I have personal enemies on another board because I didn't kiss enough butt and talk crap about people so I was of no use to them. LOL

So I am an out cast. Cause I am my own person and dont agree with everything they say. I know every one thinks I am quiet but that is only because I have been for a little while now cause it wasnt worth it any more. You can ask Heidi about me on that one she has known me for a long time. I am quiet til some one says something the wrong way and then I cant be quiet any more. LOL That is just me I guess.

Sonny long time no talk to.
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Last edited by Droolgang on Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:26 am; edited 1 time in total






Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:57 am




Nataly
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Joined: Aug 07, 2006
Posts: 25
Location: Terra Incognita


Post subject:

O`key, good point!!!

Here is poison Nataly comes

Love you, Amber
you said "no one did say" I did and many times and you, Amber, was the one who tried to be on opposite side by the way not once i have a good memory... sometimes

And i have never seen any support at that point, so now we suddenly started to FEEL it???

I can tell you how this BS works if you want to know and did not discover yet.

"Кукушка хвалит петуха за то,что тот хвалит кукушку".

So, as long as you have a group of people who are your aka "friends" and kiss their butts ---as long they will kiss yours!!! what is new????

And i believe you should not blame anyone at this point and first --turn around and see.

By the way--many have thousands aka "friends" now until got confronted

Well, it is enough to say for today

And i am sorry for my misprinting which will be all the time, i use 10 fingers to print and some letters
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:07 am




Droolgang
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Posts: 66
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Post subject:

Okay I know you did say things but I have to say this when it is said it should be said in a nice way not in a bad way to hurt some ones feelings. And I am sorry if I had forgotten what was said but it has been a long time. You out of how many people said something. Maybe i was on the opposite end but maybe it was because of the way it was said and maybe it was just a miscommunication taking it as hard as it came off that is the point. When I said that I also said that it should be done in a nice way. I hope you understand what i am saying.

I am not one to start trouble ever. But I do tend to stick up for the underdog if I feel like they are being picked on for the wrong reasons or maybe something was said to harsh.


Any how I hope this doesnt cause friction cause it wasn't meant to.
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:20 am




Nataly
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Post subject:

I mean i have seen many times when people post pix and ask for honest opinion and EVERY time if someone says the truth---it all finishes by WW 3

The point is people are not ready to take any negative respond, then why to ask?

Another part is -- any pet is great!!! But if osmeone will detail that it is great to be a pet--- then it is WW 4 started.

I can understand the hwole idea, i cannot offer or give an answer how to manage it all at once!

You have to welcome people and their dogs, but at the same time not to confuse if we talk about those dogs to be for breedings or just for companions.

And if anyone will discover that board b/w 2 options--should get a Cake at least.

We can discuss, we can feel upset and as long as any conversation does not go ugly and we can manage to treat each other as grown up--is the best we can do for now...
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:21 am




Droolgang
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Post subject:

P. S. do me a favor remember if my post doesnt make since I am on medication for a bad head cold so I am not exactly sure if that post reads write. LOL
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:21 am




Nataly
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Post subject:

u are forgiven as we all are on specific medication here

you are not alone
ha-ha-ha-ha.
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:31 am




Drooln1
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Joined: Aug 08, 2006
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Post subject:

Interesting topic I have been enjoying it alot, although what set amber off lord only knows lol but yeah she can get like that at time crazy chick

I think you just have to take what every one does and says with a grain of salt, or do like me and find humor in it all thats the best way, when the drama gets bad just laugh, but I would say us neo people are lucky, now the bloodhound people they are ruthless






Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:50 am




Kim
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

Well this made me giggle a lot this morning......the thread TYPE and here we discuss TYPE....but of people not dogs....hahahahahahaha

But its all good to get out of people at the start of the site, how things have gone in the past, so that we are more aware not to make the same mistakes here. Important too, to understand peoples' style of posting is not necessarily a reflection on who they really are away from PC as some have harder time expressing themselves than others?

We wouldnt be human if we hadnt all said and done things at some stage in life that others can take offence at, especially people like me, I know. I sort of expect everyone to think like me and also have a thick skin/be objective like me too, but know in reality, people are a lot more sensitive and take things far more personally than I intended. But here, I think most have been in the breed long enough to get hardened by experiences and have more knowledge to know their own dogs inside out, good points and bad. So I dont expect things to be so much of an issue.

When it comes to preferences of TYPE of Mastini however, I expect many many wars here, hahahahaha, but we should all, in the end, agree to disagree.

Fun posts Nataly and Amber!!!






Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:36 pm




Anita
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Joined: Aug 06, 2006
Posts: 34



Post subject:

First of all....wonderful post Kim!!!

I have loved and lived with the Mastino for just over 11 years now, and... like the rest of us on here....I feel a deep love, and a fierce passion for it, but what stirs me the most is the respect I feel towards a few of the great mastinari who made it their life's work and ambition to create a mastino which was not only very beautiful to look at, but a complete mastino, being correct and consistent throught, and of which had the size and construction to move as a working dog should..... freely, powerfully, and free from pain.....yes some of these mastinari not only achieved this lifelong and dedicated passion, ( and as Kim said above ) but like Querci, they stamped their type which was recognisable, but it was type, because it was consistent throughout and a complete dog!!!!
I love to see some of these huge Mastini with massive bone and loads of skin.....sure I do, they take my breath away, but with too much excess you get problems, and as much as I love to see some of the monsters which have been bred to create the extreme, it would never be my wish to do this myself, as I would feel to be doing an injustice not only to the breed I love, but also to the mastinari who left to us their wonderful legacy, to go forward with.

Amber, I completely understand and sympathise with the way you are feeling towards these people, but people like that, and ones who cannot, or will not listen to helpful advice, or friendly critismn, and can see no fault whatsoever in what they are breeding....will never go any further than where they are now, but will go in circles, because people like this ( I have found ) do not have enough respect or passion for the Mastino to want to help to ensure it has a future!!!!






Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:05 pm




Sonnyduty
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Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 50



Post subject:

great post anita. here here






Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:09 am




Kim
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 208
Location: South Wales UK


Post subject:

God, now Im going to be accused of butt kissing if I say was a great post from Anita too, eh?

But seriously, I will give perfect example of a kind of situation that people take offence at. Some months ago, Taine came from quarentine, no exercise for six months, carrying little bodyweight too and I sent a face on picture for valuation and honest opinion to someone posting on this forum. I was told he was huge and beauiful type but I needed to work hard with him to correct a weak back. This I already knew, but to be told this from a picture not in profile, didnt make me think, cheeky so and so, how dare they say that, but WOW, this person has very good eyes to pinpoint this from the picture angle, impressive how they can see. Now, if I was new to Mastino, this can lead to discussion of what that person recomend to strengthen the back and can make a huge difference to the dog as adult........but Nataly is completely correct. Most people do not want an honest opinion. They want to hear glowing compliments and those that provide them are of course, nice, wonderful people.........I prefer the truth, as sometimes we are too close to our own dogs and judgement can be clouded, or outside person can see something different worth to consider.
The person who say this about Taine is NATALY. So respect to her!






Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:25 am




Droolgang
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Joined: Aug 06, 2006
Posts: 66
Location: Florida


Post subject:

I agree with telling the truth. But there is a way to do it with out it coming off as being rude or mean. Even if you were to PM the person and say hey this is what I think and tell them you are going to post to it but wont make it out as being rude or something along that line there are ways of doing it without hurting some ones feelings. WE all know that we love our dogs and with new people they may not understand why we are being so critical on their baby. I hope this makes since.


I respect every one on the board I listen to what each person has to say. But as with everything not every one is going to agree with every one. that is life. But I am one of those that try to be honest with out being rude or seeming rude even if that means I dont post to them publicly and post to them in a private message or email.
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:37 am




Capriano
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 160
Location: North of Norway


Post subject:

Yes, great posts! I am sure most of us know each other more or less... at least through the net... and learned during the years how to handle each other. Sometimes with not so much success. But as Nataly said we all are grown ups and should manage to find the way of correct communication. I had some hot battles with Nataly long time ago and now it is funny for me to think about that... What for did we fight?? We have the same passion, mastini have taken their room in our hearts. And i respect Nataly for her opinions even if sometimes i dont agree at all. And we dont need to agree, we are different with our own views.. But respect for each other that is a necessary thing to have. So I am glad that this point of view is not only mine and i am glad that this thread makes it clear. I hope that well grounded criticism will be not seen here as a way to offend.






Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:52 am




Nataly
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Joined: Aug 07, 2006
Posts: 25
Location: Terra Incognita


Post subject:

" В чужом глазу соринку видим,а в собственном бревна не замечаем!"
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:59 am




Nataly
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Joined: Aug 07, 2006
Posts: 25
Location: Terra Incognita


Post subject:

O`key, till i print something and post i see someone already posted

I also think that people should have their own opinions--it is what i like and come here to read and think about. I respect that!!! How it would be if we all see the same --- robots!

I even do not like people who do not have their opinions at all, or have but so easy to be influenced and 2 minutes later they see by someones` eyes.

I like people with their points of view, who can express themselves and stand for it!

Good point at this thread, but are we ready to ask an opinion and take it neutral in public?

Even many things can be said privately and when asked- not just come and shoot without asking for it.

As far as dogs are treated well, and not for making a profit-- i do not get mean or rude. Plus if on 4th july i have to stay with kids at home--- i do not blame anyone for having kids in rude manner!!! to whom it is concerned --know


And i express myself as i can, another thing is even if you tell the certain word with the one straight meaning-- there will be always soemone who will interprete you the wrong way.

And we can ague, discuss--it is normal if it does not get ugly...and if it is---need to stop it in time.

Thank you, Love you all!
_________________
What a Wonderful World!!!






Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:07 am
Good Luck
Phil
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CrazyMastino
Sat Nov 18 2006, 12:05PM
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